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Editorials Go to Subjects Available ComicGrader.com

Welcome to Quasar Comics and Collectibles Editorial Page.  I hope to present well thought out editorial opinions on a variety of comic and collectible related topics.  All opinions expressed herein are purely those of the author identified and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of  Quasar Comics and Collectibles.

You are welcome to respond with added opinion, whether it agrees or disagrees with what is written.  You must include your full name and e-mail address for your editorial comments or response to be considered for publication.  Your name and e-mail address will be listed with your editorial or response unless you request them to be withheld.  I plan on posting all well written replies that are not written in a hostile or attacking fashion.

After reading the opinions expressed on this page, feel free to reply to:
editorialcomments @ quasarcomics.com (Delete spaces, displayed this way to minimize SPAM)

Here we go!   :-)

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John Lumsden on Grading Standards, the Almighty Dollar, Dealers and the Market - posted 99/06/30

My Reply to Bob Overstreet - Due to His Solicitation for Final Feedback Regarding a Key Grading Decision - posted 99/05/25

Comic Book Grading Companies and Services - posted 99/02/27

John Lumsden on Grading standards, the almighty dollar, dealers and the market - posted 99/06/30
Back to Subjects Available

From: john lumsden

To: info @ comicgrader.com

Date: Monday, June 14, 1999 7:13 PM

Subject: Ebay chat board....

>Hello Bruce,

>I picked up your notice on the Ebay chat board and decided to check

>out your site. Please do not mistake my following remarks as 'anti-dealer'

>but this entire reformation of the grading system is nothing but pure

>politics. I have been collecting for the past 18 years and have

>slowly watched the grading standards spiral downward, driven mostly

>in part by the quest for the almighty dollar. This has correlated with the

>rise of a handful of national dealers who, unfortunately, pass overgraded

>books onto inexperienced collectors at above guide

>prices. The control these dealers wish to exert on the hobby is unreal

>and creates pressure throughout the hobby. I truly believe the influx

>of 'wannabe' dealers over the last 8 to 10 years has resulted in much

>of the problems the hobby currently is experiencing. Dealers become

>so hungry for stock that they invariably end up 'eating' each other to

>obtain books, often paying above their profit margins resulting in

>the overgrading or overpricing we see so commonly today.

>In effect the books have escalated in price not because of market demand,

>but because of dealer demand. They in turn pass the cost

>of their doing business onto the collector.

>I have ordered 37 books through e-bay in the last 3 months from small

>dealers and private collectors. All books were pre-1952. With e-mail and

>scans I had but 1 dissapointment out of the 37 purchases.

>During this same period I purchased 12 books from 4 national dealers.

>Excluding the White Mountain copy of Marvel Tales that I purchased from

>Pacific Comic Exchange, 8 of the 11 remaing books were overgraded.

>Perhaps the worst was 4 Rex the Wonder Dog issues from a New York dealer who

>is not only an Overstreet advisor but self proclaimed

>largest comic dealer in the world. He sold me books graded at vf that

>were clearly no better than vg!!!!

>I guess what I'm leading up to here is no national grading service

>will be able to dictate to dealer 'X' that after reviewing the books

>he has sent them, they conclude that 80% of dealer X's books are

>overgraded, clamshell the books and return them to the dealer

>with their grade affixed. Its just unreal expectations. The dealer

>will 'respectfully' disagree, remove the book from the clamshell

>affix his own grade with corresponding price and never use the service

>again.

>On another note, there appears to be some misconception among dealers and

>collectors both that each wonderous spring the new

>Overstreet will bring 3 to 10 % price increases across the board.

>For years I wrote many comics publications hammering Bob for

>artificially inflating prices for books that had no real demand and

>were plentiful in supply. Since last years adjustments I congratulate

>Bob for doing the right thing with downward adjustments in many

>titles and feel there is room for more correction. Here is the problem:

>National dealers trying to make a livlihood out of a hobby. These books were

>not created as investment vehicles for greedy individuals

>looking to capitalize on others enjoyment of the hobby. It has become

>an elite club at the top of the hobby, made up of dealers, not collectors.

>If these dealers wish to use comics as investments, than

>I feel that Bob Overstreet should treat them to the perils of the

>investment world. A fluctuating market that reflects demand and

>supply. Bob should hire his OWN staff for research, not rely upon

>dealers for market reports. I have always looked upon this as the

>'fox guarding the chicken coop' mentality. There is no balance in this

>hobby. Price wise or grading wise.

>But as much of a hassle as it has become I still enjoy it

>immensely and will not allow a monopoly to sour my own collecting.

>If this hobby is to flourish it will require honesty on the dealers part

>and informed collectors, armed with a grading guide ( Fine books

>DO NOT have cover creases!) and the ability to negotiate.

>We are killing our hobby by misleading the younger collectors and it

>needs to stop.

>I'm sorry for such a lengthy e-mail but these issues need to be

>addressed and we need to recognize THERE IS a problem...

>I salute the dealers who assist and intensify our hobby using their

>experience to bring along younger collectors.

>Thanks for reading!

>

>Regards,

>John D. Lumsden

>jdlumsden @ capecod.net>

Note:  After reading this, please see www.comicgrader.com for more information.  Your feedback desired.

Dear Bob:

It was nice seeing you this past weekend and I appreciate your efforts for the hobby. I do agree that the grading service will cause new "players" to see what is up with comic book collecting. Here is my recommendation:

Note that this is consistent and logical, with increments between the grades equal on the scale. There are 1.5 points from 8.5 to 10 with 7 distinct grades. Therefore, 7 distinct and equidistant points (rounded to the nearest tenth point) should be employed:

8.5 VF+

8.8 VF/NM

9.0 NM-

9.2 NM

9.5 NM+

9.8 NM/M

10.0 Mint

I hope you will agree that this scale is best for the LONG TERM health of the hobby (Vs. the short term benefit of certain dealers as the initial (and primary) wave of ignorant investors enters the hobby only to be overcharged during the initial grading hype for VF/NM books if that grade is given a 9.0. This is very similar to what happened in coins during the late 1980s as CGC panel so clearly illustrated when they noted (in response to my initial comments) that MS65 Morgan Dollars were as high as $400+ and are now $50 - $80. I wonder how many of those investors would still be in the coin market today if they had not bought these coins at those prices only to sell at a severe loss? Probably a lot more of them.

This could easily happen to comics. The back issue market in high grade "big" books could be severely weakened after the initial run up in price with prices ultimately ending at levels below that of the run up. Instead, you have the opportunity to assist the market to a more stable increase in demand as investors enter the market.

I trust you will make the decision truly best for the hobby (not the dealers, of which I am one) you have so long enjoyed.

I would be happy to discuss this issue with you further.

Sincerely

Bruce W. Edwards
Owner
Quasar Comics and Collectibles
Phone: 502-451-4852
Fax: 502-454-0025
Web: www.quasarcomics.com
E-mail: bruce@quasarcomics.com
P.O. Box 2227
Louisville, KY 40201-2227 USA

Editorial Note:  The original message I received follows.  Bob apparently sent it to Mark for distribution to the advisor e-mail list.  This is how I received the e-mail in my copy of MS Outlook Express.

-----Original Message-----

From: Mark Huesman <e-mail address removed>

To: Robert Overstreet <e-mail address removed>

Date: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 3:48 PM

Subject: Bob Overstreet-New Grading Scale Survey

>5/25/99>

>Dear Advisor:

>

> A meeting was held in Timonium, Maryland last weekend (5/21-23) with

>over 60 pricing advisors in attendance so that they could give me

>feedback about the marketplace. The subject of developing a new grading

>scale was discussed. The majority agreed that the 100 point system was

>dead! Since no one could agree on a uniform grading scale, it was

>explained that I would have the final decision on what scale would be

>used after receiving input from the advisors. This new scale will also

>be implemented by the grading service, CGC, in the very near future.

> After hearing everyone's views on the subject, I have decided to go

>with the scale published in the new guide from 8.5 down. However, as a

>last attempt to incorporate your ideas, I am delaying my decision on

>what the scale will be above 8.5.

> Please advise me on your preference for where the numbers should

>fall and I will make a decision very soon. Please keep in mind that

>whatever numbers you recommend, they must comply numerically and

>logically with the lower part of the scale (0.5 to 8.5). It is very

>important that this scale works. Businesses will be pouring a lot of

>money into this system and must feel that their investment is

>worthwhile.

> If you like the entire scale as published in the guide, please

>advise. Remember, this will be your last chance to give input on this

>subject. Case closed!

> Whatever I decide, you can be assured that I have weighed all of

>your opinions and will make a decision with the best interests of all

>participants in mind. Since there is a lot of division on this issue, I

>hope that everyone will come together in support of the new system.

> Professional grading is badly needed in our market because of the

>internet as well as for many other reasons. It will change comic books

>from a cottage industry and propel it into a much more professional

>business, attracting many new players.

> This cannot fail, and remember that for decades I have collected

>every genre of comic book in every grade and from every period and would

>never make a decision that I felt either hurt the collector, the dealer

>or the marketplace.

>

>Nuff said!

>

>Please email your decision asap.

>

>Sincerely,

>Bob Overstreet

Responses:

From: WSchelly@aol.com <WSchelly @ aol.com>

To: editorialcomments @ quasarcomics.com

Date: Sunday, June 13, 1999 4:51 PM

Subject: reaction

>Dear Bruce,

>I read your reply to Bob Overstreet about the top of the grading scale.

>However, as this isn't really my area of expertise, I can only say that your

>arguments make sense to me, and I do hope they are adopted by Bob. There

>definitely should be an UNCHANGING standard that anyone can apply to comics

>grading, whatever form it takes.

>Wish I had more to add that that! I'll close merely by adding that I am glad

>that someone with your integrity and conscientiousness is "there" to speak

>out. I trust you will continue to make your voice heard on these sorts of

>collecting issues! Thanks.

>I like what you are doing with your site. The images in the auction portion

>are better. I will begin compiling lots (mostly single issues) and hope that

>your auction will happen sooner than later. I could use a "cash infusion" by

>the end of the year!!

>Yours truly,

>Bill Schelly

I think most collectors, dealers and investors would welcome the above four points if they could
be achieved although I do question how much a true collector would enjoy having his books
encapsulated and not be able to inspect, read and enjoy the interior story and art!

I would now like to offer up a few points to consider as well as some background into why I
believe I am qualified to make these observations.

I have collected coins, from ancient Greek, Roman, Medieval and modern world coins to all types
of U.S. coins since 1971. I worked in the Numismatic (coin collecting) business, first as a sales
clerk and later as a store manager, from 1978 to 1985. I have read comics since I was a child
and actively started collecting them (post childhood) in 1977. I've bought and sold comics since
1982, with my auctions starting up in 1985. I've been on the AACC grading committee for
Sotheby's in 1993-1996 and 1998.

There are several coin grading firms in business today. The three dominant ones are PCGS, NGC
and ANACS. They all exist to promote the four points outlined above in addition to making
money for their owners (I am not aware of any of these services being nonprofit).

Since these services started, there has been a gradual change in grading standards (some would
argue not so gradual). I for one, wonder how grades can change, since - once defined - the
criteria for an item meeting a grade should not change. Most with experience would agree that
grading standards have become more lenient (the term is called "market grading" in the trade).  In
other words, what ever can be passed off as an Extremely Fine 45 in the market is, therefore, an
Extremely Fine 45. An example, which I am working from memory on, was in a recent issue of
the weekly coin newspaper "Coin World" (I believe a November issue or close to it). An 1804
U.S. silver dollar (one of the most desired coins from the typical U.S. coin collector's view point)
was original graded in the late 1980s or early 1990s as an EF45 by PCGS. It was then graded,
after a time, by NGC as an AU (Almost Uncirculated) 50. It was recently graded again by PCGS
as an AU55! This would be comparable to a Detective 27 originally receiving a grade of VF80
ending up as a NM95 after a few years!

While grading services may prevent the most negligent over or undergrading, serious
inconsistencies continually occur. While I understand how different grades can be assigned to like
items due to the subjectivity involved, I can not understand how the same coin can receive
such a different grade - by the same grading service! There are only a few of those coins in
existence, with the records kept by the grading firms, I fail to understand how PCGS could not
know they were grading the same coin they previously handled. Personally, I find the situation
with the 1804 dollar both inexcusable and reprehensible.

Regardless of any service's grade guarantee, grading does remains some what subjective, even
given strict criteria for grading. No grade given by a grading service can truly be considered the
definitive grade. Even given a panel of respected experts, grades will sometimes vary widely. This
has been the case during the Sotheby's grading sessions. Sometimes we are all within a few points
but sometimes we are off by 30 points from the highest to the lowest! And, this is due to legitimate
considerations by each grader. I shudder to wonder how people, no matter how well intentioned,
with little or no experience grading comics, will accurately assess a comic book's grade and be
able to accurately detect restoration work and even the originality of some items.

A liquid market has not really been achieved in "slabbed" coins. Why? All knowledgeable coin
dealers recognize that there are "mistakes" in the slabs as well as nice coins. Many no longer offer
sight unseen bids and only make offers based on "sight seen" where they will decide if the coin
meets their criteria for a grade (sounds pretty much like a market for non-slabbed coins). How is
a comic book dealer (or collector) going to assess the paper quality and structural integrity of a
"slabbed" comic without voiding any certification by the grading service?

There has been a slab game going on in the coin market for several years. This occurs when
people break out undergraded coins from the holders and resubmit them, hoping for and
frequently getting a higher grade on the next try at the slab merry-go-round. Thus, as time goes
by, a tendency towards overgraded or marginal coins for a given grade is occurring with all the
nicer coins being broken out of the slab for a try at a higher grade.

One final related comment: What is the difference between the 100 point comic grading system
and the 10 point system? The 100 point grading system does not use fractions of a point, so there
are 100 possible grades. The proposed 10 point system uses increments of one-tenth of a point,
so there are 100 possible grades. How is this less confusing or simpler?

My basic advice: learn to grade comics by looking at as many as you can from many different
dealers. Compare their grades to the written definitions and your own common sense. Gain a
clear understanding of what you expect from a grade and accept no substitutes!

I look forward to further comments on this topic.

Sincerely,

Bruce
Bruce W. Edwards
Owner
Quasar Comics and Collectibles

Responses:

Subj: My reaction
Date: 2/27/99 1:05:06 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: WSchelly@aol.com
To: editorial@quasarcomics.com

Bruce,

Your editorial seems very informed, since it brings in EXPERIENCE in another collectible market
with slabbing. When all is said and done, I think this will fail -- because, as you point out, there
will ALWAYS be disagreement, and can never be a TRULY LIQUID market, especially for
something as complex as a comic book (in terms of grading). This new service is doomed to fail.

Your cogent comments are appreciated.

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